Curse

lyra_song · Nov 11, 2007, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by bilateralrope

What advantages do they have to counter the large time investment required just to make them equal to the characters of players with only one character ?

The fact that they have MANY characters is a huge advantage in terms of available types of gameplay and team builds and solo builds they can play, as well as the variety of functions they can play through what they have learned through playing multiple characters.

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Which is what makes it so boring.

The first time through or the second time through? Try the 17th time through?

If you wanna make it less boring, it has to be less boring the first time through.

Adding a stipulation that favors those who have done things before through outside forces (enhancing a fresh newbie character for example with abilities available only to veteran characters) other than their own personal skill and knowledge gained through first playing through is the very definition of unfair gameplay.

If you want to make it less boring by doubling up points, adding more ways to gain points, more quests etc, I am in favor of that certainly since it benefits players, no matter how many characters they have and no matter how many times they have played through the game, wheter its the first time, or the 17th time.

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And they have to spend more time doing the repetitive boring tasks just to get their character up to the same stats as someone who only plays that character.

But its still the same amount of time per character. The one with 1 character chose to focus on one character. The one with many chose to focus on many characters.

Having multiple characters does not increase the amount of time. Its still the same amount of time.

You are disputing basic mathematics.

1 x 100 hours = 100 hours
6 x 100 hours = 600 hours

You are trying to make the following true.

1 x 100 hours = 100 hours
6 x 100 hours = 100 hours

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Punishing might not be the right word. But it is certainly discouraging people from playing multiple characters.

If you dont have a lot of time, how can you expect to play so many characters?

Thats what really boggles my mind.

-==-=--=-==-=-=---

i think what this thread really falls down to is Socialism vs Capitalism.

Isileth · Nov 11, 2007, 10:29 PM // 22:29

The problem I can see with your post lyra is that you seem to be saying, because group x gets advantage y they should be stuck with limit z.

Whats wrong with improving things?

This change would remove the limit allowing those who enjoy multiple chars not to miss out on titles while also not having to miss out on multiple chars.

freekedoutfish · Nov 11, 2007, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Because titles arent everything?

As long as im having fun I will continue to play.

Now this change would make it more fun for me, because I dont want to play with just 1 char, I want to be able to play different proffesions. But I also want to get a title should I want to. Not because I care what someone else thinks about me when I display it, but because its something I would like to achieve.

Whos stopping you making more characters?

Anet isnt, im not and Joe Blogg isnt either. Just because there are alot of titles ingame to earn (if you choose) is no reason to argue that they are a prevention to making more characaters.

You dont need to earn those titles everytime, but if you choose to then its choice and no one elses.

No ones forcing you to earn them either.

And titles such as LB, SS and GWEN may have required ranks to access certain things or to progress, but those ranks can be reached by just playing the game.

If you then choose to continue to earn those titles and push beyond those ranks its no ones choice by your own. Your not made to max them out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

The problem I can see with your post lyra is that you seem to be saying, because group x gets advantage y they should be stuck with limit z.

Whats wrong with improving things?

This change would remove the limit allowing those who enjoy multiple chars not to miss out on titles while also not having to miss out on multiple chars.

Again with this barrier nonsense. No one is stopping you from making more characters. When i make a new character I dont think to myself...

"Oh damn, I cant make another character because ill need to earn that title again. Damn Anet, I cant do it!! "

...try to be realistic. You say "But I also want to get a title should I want to. ", well great. Go earn that title if you want, but its not Anet business if you choose to.

I really wish people would stop trying to argue that titles create a barrier to making new characters. They dont! They do nothing of the kind, the reason being that titles are optional.

Those which are required at certain ranks are attianable by just playing!

If you want higher ranks, its no one choice but yours!

If you could argue that without these titles maxed out, you couldnt proceed ingame or do a certain task, quests, mission or dungeon then Id sign this.

But you dont need LB, SS or any GWEN titles maxed to do anything. Yes it may be fun to max them out, but that is your choice.

Reaching the ranks in SS and LB to proceeed ingame is done through quests. The ranks needed for armor and weapons in GWEN are done through quests and bounties.

If you feel you need to max them for pve only skill use then fine. Im not going to say dont, because some are usefull. But you dont need them to play.

You cant expect Anet to turn a few skills on their head just because you all want some maxed out pve only skills which arent necessary to anything

That is all this is about. Wanting pve only skills maxed out the instance you get them. You dont need them maxed! Most are just as effective at rank 5.

Isileth · Nov 11, 2007, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Before I continue I would just like to point out that everything in a game is optional. Max armour is optional, max weapons, pink hair whatever.

That however doesnt mean not having max doesnt put you at a disadvantage. If I went round with 40AL I would be at a disadvantage to someone in max armour right?

Well its the same for pve skills and bounuses from titles. Yeah you dont need them to be max, but you are at a disadvantage if you dont. So if you play more than one char without increasing the ammount of time you play. You are suddenly at a disadvantage, because even though you have achieved the same thing, the system currently rewards one while not the other.

So to argue against it with the case of you dont need it really doesnt get anywhere. Because you could use that against everything. At the end of the day its a game. It doesnt matter. That doesnt mean however things cant be improved.

I also never said we are being stopped from making new chars, but the system does favour those who play with one instead of many. It should reward the player not the character. As it is the player who is playing.

As for the comment about most being just as effective at R5 to max they arent and you know it.

Air of Superiority lasts a whole 11 seconds longer.
Summon Naga Shaman is 5 levels highers and lasts 16 seconds longer
Great Dwarf Armor lasts 16 seconds longer

Thats a huge difference.

And because I choose to play multiple chars even though I have achieved just as much as someone else, I dont get the rewards.

The change would stop that.

Aera Lure · Nov 11, 2007, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

The problem I can see with your post lyra is that you seem to be saying, because group x gets advantage y they should be stuck with limit z.

Setting aside what Lyra said for a moment, I'm not following you on this statement. What you appear to be trying to say is "because group x gets advantage y should too." I cant agree with that. The part about the limit you appear to be trying to say Group Y has one and X does not. A limit, if there is one, is in place for all, which is simply each character needs to earn the bonus irrespective of the fact that you, the player, do it multiple times if you want said bonus on multiple characters.

Lyra's post I agree with 100%. Couple things I'll quote though might as well have quoted the whole thing for emphasis:

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

The fact that they have MANY characters is a huge advantage in terms of available types of gameplay and team builds and solo builds they can play, as well as the variety of functions they can play through what they have learned through playing multiple characters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

But its still the same amount of time per character. The one with 1 character chose to focus on one character. The one with many chose to focus on many characters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

If you dont have a lot of time, how can you expect to play so many characters?

Doesnt get much more straightforward than that. I was saying much the same thing. Want those bonus effects on multiple characters? You need to work on said character to put it there. No one said either that you need to max all the tracks or even develop all of them. They function just fine at a rank of 5 which easily happens just by playing and they are fairly easy to get to a rank of 8 on a couple tracks.

Each character doesnt have to have all the tracks to 8+ let alone maxed. That becomes more a goal for a seeker of KoaBD or someone who is heavily focused on one character. Want to heavily focus on more than one character? Ok, but you cant have your cake and eat it too.

Isileth · Nov 11, 2007, 11:12 PM // 23:12

The point is, its the player who has gone and done it.

By maxing a grind title ive shown that I can complete it. Doing it again is just more grind. Choosing to play multiple chars shouldnt mean you have to grind more or just give up on titles. It can be changed so people who play with multiple chars can do both.

As for having your cake and eating it, this is a game. Anet makes its money by selling the game. If they can keep their customers happy they get more money when they continue buy their games. Right now players who take multiple chars are at a disadvantage.

That makes us sad

If it was changed so not only could we play how we want without being forced to grind or skip part of the game....

We would be happy

Aera Lure · Nov 11, 2007, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

As for the comment about most being just as effective at R5 to max they arent and you know it.

Air of Superiority lasts a whole 11 seconds longer.
Summon Naga Shaman is 5 levels highers and lasts 16 seconds longer
Great Dwarf Armor lasts 16 seconds longer

Thats a huge difference.

Obviously. What I said though wasnt that they were just as effective. I said they were not dysfunctional at level 5. Please dont start making things up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

And because I choose to play multiple chars even though I have achieved just as much as someone else, I dont get the rewards.

If you play multiple characters and earn max rank Asura on one character, max rank Norn on another, max rank SS and LB on another - you have earned EXACTLY the same rewards as the player that decided to place them all on one. Exactly the same.

The flexibility is different. You hopefully put Asura on a character that can best take advantage of AoS and Pain Inverter, whereas you put max ranked Norn on more than likely a frontliner. This flexibility allows bonuses spread out over several roles. I have opted instead to put them all on one.

You get exactly the same rewards. I do not see where you do not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

The change would stop that.

Yes it would. I agree at least with that.

freekedoutfish · Nov 11, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

That however doesnt mean not having max doesnt put you at a disadvantage. If I went round with 40AL I would be at a disadvantage to someone in max armour right?

Well its the same for pve skills and bounuses from titles. Yeah you dont need them to be max, but you are at a disadvantage if you dont. So if you play more than one char without increasing the ammount of time you play. You are suddenly at a disadvantage, because even though you have achieved the same thing, the system currently rewards one while not the other.

1) You cant compare maxed pve only skills to max armor because there is 1.5k max armor sets ingame. Sets which are easily affordable to all.

Also max armor is a necessity, because their is no alternative to its use. If you dont have it, you simply wont survive high end areas, or you will be constantly putting the team at a disadvantage.

2) Explain to me, precisely, at what point in the game are you disadvantaged if you dont have a pve only skill maxed out?

All quests, missions, dungeons, exploration and elite areas can be completed without the use of a pve only skill. Even LB gaze isnt needed to play ROT.

But even LB gaze is just effective at low ranks as at high! The status effects ar even effect at low ranks!

Also most pve only skills have a similar (if not exact) counterpart amoung the normal skills! Skills which seem to have done the job for the last 1-2 years, so why do we need them to be more powerfull?

PvE only skills are designed to mimic (to an extent) normal skills, but they dont force you to have a set profession to use them. That was their purpose and also to have a set of skills not effected by PvP. But most are near identical to existing skills.

So are you suggesting that since the conception of pve only skills, you simply cannot play the game without them?

How did we manage before they were added NF? We seemed to cope for nearly a year! So again, explain to me exactly how a person is disadvantaged if they dont have pve only skills maxed?

Describe the situations and/or areas ingame which require a pve only skill, or you simply cant proceed!

If you try to say "you might not be allowed into pugs unless your a certain rank", then that is nonsense. I am yet to see a person be judged on their LB, SS or GWEN ranks. I am yet to see a person being forced to use a pve only skill.

Im usually the only person takes Alkar's acid into Glint's challenge and we survive that. Most people in those teams are rank1-5 Drawf and we still see to manage against the destroyers!

So tell me how and where you are disadvantaged?

wu is me · Nov 11, 2007, 11:35 PM // 23:35

lol i jus couldn't help but notice this:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10214213

yea its prolly more of a flaw with pve only skills, than it is with the titles, but hey... pve skills do matter now =P

and theres an infinite difference between: slightly more effective, and not more effective at all
and theres by comparison very little difference between: slightly more effective, and significantly more effective

lyra_song · Nov 11, 2007, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

The point is, its the player who has gone and done it.

And what relevance is that?

Lets take some pure simple concepts in game design.

First we establish the player. You. You are the player.
Next we establish the character. Your character.
Next we establish the game concept. We will take the simplest of all concepts. Go from point A to point B. This is essentially what Guild Wars can be boiled down to, with the addage of "kill stuff along the way".

So the player is taking the character from point A to point B and beats the game.
Now the player wants to take another character from point A to point B again.

What relevance does the player's first time affect the second time?

There is only be one thing. Player experience.
The player will know how to do game objectives and beat things faster.
The player will which areas to do first, which to skip, which are harder, which are easier.

Player experience does not equate to character experience.

Character experience can only be quantifiable in game terms like amount of gold, map uncovered, equipped armor, XP earned by character, attributes, skills gained, towns unlocked, and how far into the game that character is.

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By maxing a grind title ive shown that I can complete it. Doing it again is just more grind.

Yes. This is true.

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Choosing to play multiple chars shouldnt mean you have to grind more or just give up on titles. It can be changed so people who play with multiple chars can do both.

It "shouldn't" is not enough justification, when it seemed that it was perfectly fine the first time through.

Again. If you want to change it, make it better the first time through. No advantages the second time. Make it less grindy the first time.

If you hate the grind so much, REMOVE IT, make it easier, make it faster, do not set a level grind you are willing to accept the first time, but not the second time, when each time is in fact a unique experience on its own.

Quote:

As for having your cake and eating it, this is a game. Anet makes its money by selling the game. If they can keep their customers happy they get more money when they continue buy their games. Right now players who take multiple chars are at a disadvantage.

The cake is a lie.

I finished playing Portal the second time through before i checked this thread. I beat it with the developers commentary on. I beat it VERY fast, compared to how long it took me the first time.

The playthrough with the dev commentary is a mode where they add these speech bubbles and the developers talk aboout specific game design issues, and decisions they made. However, there is no special advantage given to the player in this mode.

I beat the mode faster because I gained my skills as a player the first time through. What carried over is my own player experience at solving the puzzles and flinging (speedy thing goes in, speedy thing goes out).

I was given no special advantage, since I am playing the game through pretty much the same way, with a slight difference.

To me this is not about business, or player happiness

This is about a functioning game design with specific purposes that works.

Changing this game design to something that doesn't work for the sake of satisfying players who do not have the time, or willingness to invest time in multiple characters (which is puzzling since having many characters in any game requires time) is an adverse and negative change for the game and the gaming community as a whole.

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That makes us sad

You make me very sad.

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If it was changed so not only could we play how we want without being forced to grind or skip part of the game....

We would be happy

You just contradicted yourself. the grind is part of the game. yet you dont want to be forced to skip part of the game.

Make up your mind.

edit:
I was just thinking about that one thread that suggested that we should be allowed to change our PRIMARY class and how this thread reminds me of that.

Sleeper Service · Nov 11, 2007, 11:56 PM // 23:56

"You just contradicted yourself. the grind is part of the game. yet you dont want to be forced to skip part of the game."

grind / TITLES was ADDED to the game. it would not be a problem if Titles were not linked to PVE SKILLs.

Its not about skipping part of the game its about not REPEATING THE SAME PART OVER AND F-ING OVER FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN TO ARTIFICIALLY EXTEND THE LIFESPAN OF SAID GAME.

the proposed changes affects the so called "hardcore" RPGer in NO WAY. if you dont LIKE IT DONT USE IT.

lyra_song · Nov 12, 2007, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

"You just contradicted yourself. the grind is part of the game. yet you dont want to be forced to skip part of the game."

grind / TITLES was ADDED to the game. it would not be a problem if Titles were not linked to PVE SKILLs.

It is PART of GWEN/Nightfall's design. So it is part of the game.

The problem isn't that they are linked to PvE skills. The problem here is that it is BORING.

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Its not about skipping part of the game its about not REPEATING THE SAME PART OVER AND F-ING OVER FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN TO ARTIFICIALLY EXTEND THE LIFESPAN OF SAID GAME.

And repeating it is PURELY your choice.

You choose to repeat it.

Stop complaining that you have to repeat it when it was your choice to repeat it.

Stop complaining about REPEATING IT.

And start complaining about why its there in the FIRST PLACE.

Quote:

the proposed changes affects the so called "hardcore" RPGer in NO WAY. if you dont LIKE IT DONT USE IT.

Well if you dont want to repeat it, dont repeat it.

Its not even about being hardcore or casual. The game treats both the same way in regards to the grind titles. It takes time. You can spend the time to do it, or not. Its up to you.

freekedoutfish · Nov 12, 2007, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

lol i jus couldn't help but notice this:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10214213

yea its prolly more of a flaw with pve only skills, than it is with the titles, but hey... pve skills do matter now =P

and theres an infinite difference between: slightly more effective, and not more effective at all
and theres by comparison very little difference between: slightly more effective, and significantly more effective

I accept that, but im still waiting for someone to give me a detailed list of instances ingame when you are disadvantaged if you have a non-maxed pve only skill!!

Someone explain indepth when having a non-maxed skill in GWs is going to put you in a disadvantaged situation?

And I dont mean comments like "well if you use it, it would be easier so without it your disadvantaged". I mean list me situations where you cannot complete a task, quest, mission, dungeon or elite/normal zone/instance unless you have a maxed pve only skill in your skill bar to use!

Im waiting for someone to prove this "your disadvantaged if your pve only skills arent maxed" statement!

Someone in here?

Because otherwise I would love to know how we managed for nearly a year before they were added!

wu is me · Nov 12, 2007, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Yea i agree. You will be under no circumstances prevented from unlocking hardmode, because you don't have access to pve skills.

But even if what you say about giving no advantage to a character with maxed pve skills in relation to a character with minimal ranks in the titles, is true, it doesn't justify the current system. The proposal might be entirely more enjoyable than the current system.

Just the same, the fact that a player has completed a title, shouldn't justify it being displayed across characters.

The whole topic really just boils down to whether you prefer to play a game which encourages identity via association with only one character, or if you prefer a game that encourages play of multiple characters.

Character based titles encourage association with a single identity in the character's profession. Account based titles encourage play across the board of professions, but you would lose the sense of identity, whereby you can say "Im a Necro, i love heavy metal, etc".(well thats my take on it anyway)

With more characters you give up identity, but you gain more a indepth gameplay experience.

arcanemacabre · Nov 12, 2007, 01:29 AM // 01:29

You never cease to amaze me, fish. How about you answer your own question, except replace "a non-maxed skill" with "a non-max armor," "a non-max weapon," and "not all attribute points."

I asked you this before, and I never got an answer, so I'll ask again:

Hypothetically, if there were endgame armor that added +5 extra armor per class (PvE-only effect), but could only be purchased when you get, let's say rank 10 in some ridiculously heavy grind title (let's say Treasure Hunter or something); well, would you be ok with that? I mean, +5 armor is not a lot, it's a very "slight advantage." And, ya know, everyone is fine with normal armor; it works fine before, and it'll work fine after. Right?

Frozy · Nov 12, 2007, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

You never cease to amaze me, fish. How about you answer your own question, except replace "a non-maxed skill" with "a non-max armor," "a non-max weapon," and "not all attribute points."

I asked you this before, and I never got an answer, so I'll ask again:

Hypothetically, if there were endgame armor that added +5 extra armor per class (PvE-only effect), but could only be purchased when you get, let's say rank 10 in some ridiculously heavy grind title (let's say Treasure Hunter or something); well, would you be ok with that? I mean, +5 armor is not a lot, it's a very "slight advantage." And, ya know, everyone is fine with normal armor; it works fine before, and it'll work fine after. Right?

You beat me to this exact type of reply

Also, fish, what rank do you get by simply playing the game, not grinding for the titles? 5? possibly less.
Now, please visit one of the GW Wiki sites, and check the EotN skills.
Are you still saying the difference between rank 5 and rank 10 isn't big?

Crom The Pale · Nov 12, 2007, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Titles were introduce to GW as an 'End-of-Game' content to extend the life of GW.

So wouldn't spreading these titles over your entier account defeat the intended purpose of said titles?

As for those that bring up Skill > Time arguments, PvE is not really what they had in mind for that. PvP is skill over time.

In PvE the lvl 20 cap, 200 attribute points and armor/weapons are the balancing factor, not a players skill.

The 'grind' needed to reach rank 10 in a pve skill title can be compared to the 'grind' needed to reach lvl 20. The cap is in place and is attainable to every player.

BlackSephir · Nov 12, 2007, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

As for those that bring up Skill > Time arguments, PvE is not really what they had in mind for that. PvP is skill over time.

O really? Can you back this up? They said "skill > time but in pvp only"?

Quote:

The 'grind' needed to reach rank 10 in a pve skill title can be compared to the 'grind' needed to reach lvl 20. The cap is in place and is attainable to every player.

Bullshit. I got to 20 lvl with pve chars just by playing the game, now get to R10 in GWEN by playing the game.

MirkoTeran · Nov 12, 2007, 06:30 AM // 06:30

/not signed for making this game any easier then it already is.

Mist Walker Skarloc · Nov 12, 2007, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by MirkoTeran

/not signed for making this game any easier then it already is.

/signed

It's not about being easy. It's about grinding being boring. If I grind, I want the benefits of that all the time. I did the grinding, not my character itself, so why does only the single character get the benefits and not all of my account?